Out Of Order

FOR THE MOTIONColin DueckPolicy Professor & Author, "Age of Iron: On Conservative Nationalism”Prerna SinghPolitical Scientist & Author, “How Solidarity Works for Welfare”AGAINST THE MOTIONAndrew KeenInternet Entrepreneur & Author, "Tomorrows Versus Yesterdays"Elif ShafakActivist & Author, “The Bastard of Istanbul”THE HOSTJohn DonvanHost and ModeratorEditor’s Note: GMF’s “Post-Pandemic Order” series is on hiatus. In the meantime, watch our feed for more original podcast content. This IQ2 debate was produced in partnership with GMF's Brussels Forum and was originally streamed live in June 2020.

In many ways, Taiwan has a front row seat, with the coronavirus pandemic, Beijing’s new national security law, and geopolitical uncertainty further impacting Taiwan’s already tenuous position. On this episode, GMF’s Julie Smith and Deutsche Welle’s East Asia Correspondent, William Yang, dive into the most relevant questions for the island today. What is the outlook for Taiwan’s future given Beijing’s the implementation of the new national security law in Hong Kong? What lessons did Taiwan learn from battling the coronavirus? Does the Taiwanese public have confidence in the United States’ ability to play a positive leadership role in the region? How have CCP actions in Xinjiang impacted opinions in Taiwan about the Chinese government and its the use of digital surveillance tools? This episode was taped on July 17 as a live virtual event.

When the pandemic spread to Europe, NATO was met with a unique challenge: it needed to assist with crisis response while also keeping its ever-important deterrence mission intact on its Eastern Flank. On this week’s episode of “Post-Pandemic Order,” Derek Chollet talks with a key leader in this effort, Estonian Minister of Defense Jüri Luik, about how NATO’s mission evolved (and what stayed the same) throughout the pandemic—and what he learned about the military’s role during this unforeseen public health crisis. Minister Luik also discusses the resurgence of great power competition and how to balance the new challenges posed by China and with the continuing ones posed by Estonia’s neighbor, Russia. The conversation also covers the state of European defense spending – a much contested topic in the transatlantic relationship-- and why military spending should not become another victim of the pandemic, despite a bleak economic forecast.

In this episode of Post-Pandemic Order, guest host Sudha David-Wilp sits down with Congresswoman Lauren Underwood of Illinois's 14th congressional district to discuss the long history of systemic racism in the United States, public health during the coronavirus pandemic, and generational perspectives on governing and leadership. Congresswoman Underwood is the youngest African American woman to be elected to the U.S. House of Representatives. Before joining Congress, Underwood had extensive public health experience as a registered nurse and as a member of the Obama administration in the Department of Health and Human Services.

The perils of disinformation are no new phenomenon, but the last few months have shown just how much damage it can do—and all the different ways it can be used. On this week’s episode, Jared Cohen, founder and CEO of Jigsaw—the independent unit at Google focused on building technology to address global security challenges—joins Derek Chollet to discuss the brave new world of the internet in the post-pandemic order. While disinformation once needed to be manufactured, conspiracy theories now grow organically and can then be exploited by both state and non-state actors in far-reaching ways. Who should be charged with stemming this tide, and who actually has the tools to be successful? According to Cohen, who also has a deep foreign policy background, the international order has two fronts: physical and digital. He explains his surprise (and what early adherents of social media platforms got wrong) with China’s ability to seamlessly adapt to the digital world—and what the coronavirus has exposed about the seemin

No country took as severe lockdown measures as India at the height of the Coronavirus pandemic. According to this week’s guest, the next two weeks will tell the world whether the country of 1.4 billion got it right. This week on Post-Pandemic Order, former U.S. Ambassador to India, Rich Verma (2014-2017), joins Julie Smith to discuss India’s place in the post-pandemic world order. As Ambassador Verma puts it: no country has animated the U.S.-India relationship more than China, and that dynamic is certain to play out in the coming years. As the rift between U.S. and China widens, Verma describes how India is moving strategically to attract business and take a more active role on the world stage. This episode, which also covers the persistent tensions at the India-China border, was taped a week prior to the recent deadly clash in the Galwan River Valley.

Pete Buttigieg—the Democratic party's first openly gay presidential candidate and a veteran who served in Afghanistan—has gained international prominence. In a conversation originally streamed live as part of GMF’s Brussels Forum, Mayor Pete joined Derek Chollet for a wide-ranging conversation on race relations in America, the state of the Democratic party amidst the 2020 elections, U.S. foreign policy and what U.S. global leadership at a tumultuous moment.  What experiences stuck with him from the primary, and which issues resonated most with the voters he met on the campaign trail? Where is the future of U.S. leadership at home and abroad headed at this pivotal moment when a public health crisis and civil unrest are converging with a critical election season? This conversation was streamed live on June 4. GMF’s Brussels Forum will run through the end of the month, for more information or to register for upcoming sessions visit brussels.gmfus.org

On this week’s episode of Post Pandemic Order, host Julie Smith talks with Angus Lapsley, director general strategy and international at the United Kingdom's Ministry of Defence. Security in a time of the coronavirus takes center stage in a conversation that touches on the United Kingdom and NATO's response to the coronavirus, the pandemic's effect on global stability and defense policy, nuclear arms control, as well as the U.K. and NATO response to emerging global threats. In his role, Angus Lapsley is responsible for defense policy on NATO and the Euro-Atlantic area, the defense implications of exiting the European Union, and our key bilateral defense relationships as well as strategic planning and strategic policy matters (e.g., nuclear deterrence, cyber, space, exports).

On this week’s episode of Post Pandemic Order, host Julie Smith discusses the coronavirus and disruptions in the global energy market with Meghan O’Sullivan the Jeane Kirkpatrick Professor of the Practice of International Affairs at the Harvard Kennedy School where she also directs the Geopolitics of Energy Project. The insight-packed 20 minute conversation dives into the pandemic’s effect on energy trends, the international energy transition, the state of international cooperation on energy issues, and much more. Meghan O’Sullivan served in the Bush administration as a special assistant to President George W. Bush and deputy national security advisor for Iraq and Afghanistan. Meghan has published a number of books, including her latest Windfall: How the New Energy Abundance Upends Global Politics and Strengthens America's Power. Meghan is also a member of the German Marshall Fund’s board. 

In a new essay for The Atlantic, titled “We Are Living in a Failed State,” veteran writer George Packer observes: “If the pandemic really is a kind of war, it’s the first to be fought on this soil in a century and a half. Invasion and occupation expose a society’s fault lines, exaggerating what goes unnoticed or accepted in peacetime, clarifying essential truths, raising the smell of buried rot.”    In this episode, Packer joins Derek Chollet to discuss what the pandemic has revealed about an already-broken America and why instead of being “the great leveler,” it has resulted in a deepening of existing fault lines—a trend that Packer predicts will continue as the November elections approach.

Among the hardest hit in Europe, Spain is cautiously charting a way out of its strict countrywide lockdown. Manuel Muñiz, Secretary of State for Global Spain (a senior minister role in the country’s Foreign Ministry), is a key voice on how exactly Spain sets out on that path. This week on GMF’s Post-Pandemic Order podcast Muñiz joins Rachel Tausendfreund to give an inside look at how Spain handled its need for resources in the thick of its outbreak, and how it’s building a new resilience strategy. Muñiz also shares insights on how the pandemic has affected the larger international order. Before the pandemic, he says, we were seeing a breakdown in multilateralism and a weakening of the liberal democratic order. The coronavirus now presents two divergent paths, for Europe and globally: one that leads to an unequal, unsustainable economic recovery that will likely entrench political fracture; or one that prioritizes a digital-centered, inclusive, green recovery and creates more unity.

In this week’s episode of “Post-Pandemic Order,” we’re back in Washington where Derek Chollet is joined by Michigan congresswoman Elissa Slotkin (D-MI 8) whose extensive background in national security is informing the way she is fighting the coronavirus pandemic within her district and from a foreign policy and defense perspective. With Congress passing trillions of dollars in relief bills, Rep. Slotkin and Derek talk about the view from Capitol Hill, and how the U.S. balances a new web of public health, economic, and national security imperatives moving forward -- and why more strategic thinking and “smart stimulus” are essential.  Slotkin, who was part of the Pentagon’s response to the Ebola crisis before running for Congress, notes how the coronavirus has exposed unpreparedness at the global level to confront health crises at this scale; and says the entire international community needs to cooperate on a huge “lessons learned” process.

The recent World Press Freedom Day was a reminder of the growing threats faced by journalists around the world. The coronavirus pandemic only exacerbates things, especially for media navigating places where corruption and democratic backsliding are on the rise as some leaders seek to take advantage of the moment for political or financial gain. On the second episode of Out of Order, produced with GMF’s Frontlines of Democracy Initiative, GMF’s Jonathan Katz talks with Drew Sullivan, publisher and founder of the Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), about how the pandemic has affected an already difficult media landscape in countries like Russia, Serbia, and Hungary; and the potential impact on corruption and investigative journalism in the region.

We are excited to collaborate with our partners in The Democracy Group podcast network to bring you a bonus episode on how COVID-19 is impacting democracy in the United States and around the world. COVID-19 brings together several issues that have long been talked about separately — political polarization, misinformation, international cooperation, democratic norms and institutions, and many others. We dive into some of those issues in this episode and discuss how we can all work together to protect, and even strengthen, democracy as we emerge from the first wave of the pandemic. For more information about The Democracy Group podcast network, visit democracygroup.org. Thank you to Democracy Group Network Manager Katie DeFiore for producing this episode! Host: Jenna Spinelle - Communications Specialist at the McCourtney Institute for Democracy Host, Democracy Works @JennaSpinelle Guests: Luke Knittig, Senior Director of Communications at the McCain Institute Host, In The Arena @LukeKnittig Jeremi Suri, Mack Br

Though this pandemic is first and foremost a health battle, the experience has also surfaced ideological clashes: autocracy vs. democracy; globalization vs. nationalism; left vs. right; interconnectedness vs. isolation. With Germany at the center of many of these big debates, prominent German parliamentarian Cem Özdemir—member of the Green political party-- joins GMF’s Derek Chollet to talk about the geopolitics of coronavirus and the view from Europe’s biggest economy. Özdemir, who recovered from the virus himself, discusses Europe’s “Corona Bonds” debate and the various forces pushing-and-pulling how Europe manages its own economic recovery. Among other topics, the conversation covers the threat of authoritarianism in this crisis and the case for liberalism to prevail. Plus: the critical questions about what the virus has exposed about interconnected societies—and what comes next.  

Fighting the Coronavirus, Preserving Democracy:  A Conversation with USAID’s Brock Bierman  While the headlines focus on the world’s larger nations, the pandemic is also hitting Europe’s far corners where resources and international attention are in shorter supply. On this episode of Out of Order, produced with GMF’s Frontlines of Democracy Initiative, GMF’s senior fellow Jonathan Katz sits down with Brock Bierman, USAID’s assistant administrator for Europe and Eurasia, to discuss how the United States via USAID is working around the clock to support the response to the pandemic in regions and countries, from Italy to Ukraine to Georgia. On top of the response to the immediate public health concerns, there are second-order challenges, included external disinformation campaigns and efforts by some governments to roll back democracy and rule of law under the fog of the coronavirus. Bierman discusses these alarming trends and the important steps that are being taken by USAID to bolster good governance, civil soc

Former EU trade commissioner and member of the Swedish Liberals party Cecilia Malmström joins GMF’s Rachel Tausendfreund this week to discuss Europe’s response to the pandemic and its economic future as the coronavirus crisis weighs heavily on all aspects of society. From an initial rush by countries to seal borders and ban exports, back to “better behavior” and cross-border cooperation, the EU response to the pandemic has had no shortage of ups and downs. Now with another economic crisis now looming over a continent that was hard hit in 2008, Malmström discusses what could happen next as EU leaders debate how to deal with an impending recession. Plus a look at how the global trade landscape will change as a result. Malmström, who also served as European Commissioner for Home Affairs and Sweden’s Minister of EU Affairs, also discusses her country’s different approach to navigating the pandemic and what life in Sweden is like now.

On the first episode of GMF’s new mini-series “Post-Pandemic Order,” U.S. Senator Chris Murphy (D-CT) joins Julie Smith to talk America’s global response to the pandemic, how the pandemic could (and should) alter U.S. foreign policy thinking, and the role democracies play in dealing with crises. Senator Murphy, who recently introduced new legislation with Senator Mitt Romney reaffirming U.S. commitment to global health security, also responds to the White House’s plan to stop funding the WHO and shares his perspectives on China’s foreign policy and how the pandemic could play into its long-term goals. Links:  Senator Murphy’s op-ed in Foreign Policy: The U.S. Government Must Prepare Now for the Next Pandemic Reuters: Lawmakers Look to Reaffirm U.S. Commitment to Global Health, Amid Coronavirus GMF T-Take: How Are China and Russia Responding to and Capitalizing on the Coronavirus Crisis? Lawfare: Understanding Hungary’s Authoritarian Response to the Pandemic

The Chinese government appears to be taking a page from Russia’s playbook-- by deploying disinformation to both distract and divide, it’s working to cover up its own shortcomings in responding to the initial outbreak of the coronavirus and attempting to damage U.S. credibility. Beijing’s more confrontational posture on COVID-19 and use of disinformation represents a clear departure from its past behavior. On this episode, Alliance for Securing Democracy co-directors Laura Rosenberger and Zack Cooper dive into the new information battle over COVID-19, which narratives China is pushing and why, and what it could mean next for China’s global strategy. How do China’s tactics mirror Russia’s and what does the end game look like? The Alliance for Securing Democracy recently launched a new iteration of its Hamilton 2.0 dashboard, which now track Chinese state media and social media messaging across its state-run social media accounts.

As the coronavirus upends life in ways that seemed unimaginable just a few weeks ago, governments are responding differently to the crisis. From border closures, export bans, and stay at home orders, decisions by leaders around the globe will surely set off a wave of political and geopolitical implications that are far from being fully realized. In this week’s episode of Out of Order, GMF experts around Europe-- from DC to Paris to Ankara to Brussels to Berlin and Warsaw-- are sharing first-person, local perspectives on how the crisis is being handled and how – or whether-- nationalism is being leveraged by governments at an unprecedented moment.